Mahler edition
This thread is for the discussion of music in the Western (European) classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.
How do I get into classical?
This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:
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Previously, on /classical/:
shit edition
kek
not really germane to the recording but it irritates me in the extreme when critics (invariably american) preface the english suites by saying that bach didn't know what he was talking about and that they're actually modelled after france. same with the insistence on "franco flemish" - it's the flemish school, or the dutch school. they were flemish people from flanders and the modern netherlands.
i hate france and americans in equal measure
Very few of those composers are from what is now The Netherlands. Most are from what is now Belgium or the northern part of France. To call them Dutch would be far more misleading because most of them spoke French.
yeah classical is a kind of metal literally for an actual composer such as myself it does totally mean that there is in every way new kinds of alga that will just totally dictate what it is in any popular music medium
Mahler
classical
the whole idea is inherently unsettling
Couod you explain why as we're all curious, or do you plan to keep acting like a sociopath
into that state of mind last night thinking about what the other anon was saying about romantic music (how it's inherently more suited to modern audiences due to its more emotional nature)
There's little to think about. You just listen, it either clicks or it doesn't. We can all appreciate both romantic and older forms of music, problem seems to be with you and your psychotic nature, and I don't mean to sound offensive, but that's the only conclusion you're leaving me with.
i don't think it's that complicated, and certainly isn't an indication of mental illness. i do occasionally listen to modern music, but i can't help but be aware while doing so of its ill effects of creating, as i say, 'excess energy'. if you've suddenly got a source of happiness, or excitement, or sadness to deal with, but don't have any ready object to move it to, you are left in a state of anxiousness, nervous excitement. i find very little value in such a state. it's all about maintaining balance (which baroque music does par excellence).
You are quite autistic. Don't worry, we love you for it here.
ill effects of creating, as i say, 'excess energy'.
I still don't get it.
if you've suddenly got a source of happiness, or excitement, or sadness to deal with, but don't have any ready object to move it to, you are left in a state of anxiousness, nervous excitement.
That sounds to me like an emotional instability. Some sort of disorder, or trauma. Emotions don't 'accumulate' like that, nor can they be 'moved' elsewhere in literal sense.
And notice, how I didn't use words "emotional" or "emotion", but rather, I used "expresiveness", and "emotional directness", because those two have two different meanings. An emotiveness in music is how *much* emotion is actually conveyed, and in that case, both baroque and romantic music are very emotional. Expressiveness is, for example, how Romantic music is utilizing more and more techniques(tempo, dynamics, phrasing etc.) to express the same emotions every other music does. It's not more exciting or more sad, it's just expressed in a broader range.
For analogy, black and white photo (baroque) can be deeply moving, but a full-color film (romantic) might be both moving and dramatically expressive.
Any good sacral music by Brahms?
His German Requiem, his shorter stuff like Nanie, Schicksalslied, Alto Rhapsody, Besang de Parzen, then his even shorter stuff like his Liebeslieder Waltzes, Op. 52 and 65 song cycles, and his other sacred choral song cycles contained in recordings like pic
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here's one of those orchestral chorus pieces, be sure to check out the rest of the recording too
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and recording containing those love song waltzes
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All of it is top-tier stuff made for the heavens
secular
I am specifically interested in sacral music.
and as for the German Requiem, there are many great recordings of it, and you could spend a lot of time trying them all like I have (eg Karajan, Klemperer, Solti, Abbado, Giulini, Rattle, the list goes on). A great place to start though is Shaw's. Can never go wrong with Shaw's choral recordings.
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Oh. Sorry for wasting your time with great music then.
Why are you responding in that cocky tone? I specifically asked for sacral music, which naturally excludes any secular works.
How about:
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I was just teasing. And also because 'sacred
music' is often used just to mean choral music in general; actually caring about whether it's genuinely sacred or not is rare. But hey, if you care, then my bad I guess, you're missing out.
'expressiveness' in this sense is still pretty much synonymous with 'emotional'. that's just a distinction of technique, as you say. if romantic music has that much more at its disposal to conjure up emotions then it is by definition a more emotional music, in that its essential style is predicated on that very expressiveness.
Emotions don't 'accumulate' like that, nor can they be 'moved' elsewhere in literal sense
it's not due to an accumulation of energy, it's due to a direct state of stimulation. some stimuli are simply more pleasant or more calm-inducing than others. others can't help but agitate. if you feel a sense of antipathy to the emotion conveyed by a piece of music, you will naturally feel too an antipathy to the method / techniques used to convey it.
Heinrich Schiff's Bach
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Yeah, I think I'm gonna read that Forkel biography.
The first significant turning point in the perception and appreciation of Bach's work was Johann Nikolaus Forkel's biography of Bach. He was the university music director in Göttingen and also a music historian. He knew both of Bach's sons, Carl Philipp Emanuel and Wilhelm Friedemann, personally and obtained much of his information from them.
In the final sentence of his biography, Forkel enthusiastically describes Bach as “the greatest musical poet and the greatest musical declamator that has ever existed and probably ever will exist”.
cool story pierre
then it is by definition a more emotional music
It's not. Romantic music shows emotion more, but Baroque can contian just as much emotion. Erbame Dich is more emotional than vast majority of romantic music for example, yet it is not very expressive. And Liszt's Grand Galop Chromatique is more expressive than any pre-romantic music, yet it is not at all emotional. Expressiveness and emotiveness are completely different. You seem to have an issue with expressiveness.
others can't help but agitate.
So, high expressiveness and unpredictability agitates you, understandable.
if you feel a sense of antipathy to the emotion conveyed by a piece of music, you will naturally feel too an antipathy to the method / techniques used to convey it.
But emotions conveyed in romantic music are the same exact emotions conveyed in baroque music lol.
The name is Piet, thank you. I'm literally Dutch and I can assure you that Josquin, Heinrich Isaac, Ockeghem etc. are not appropriated as "Dutch" composers over here.
Does this sound weird to anyone else? Like an encoding error or something.
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It's a shame because Manze has such a great RVW cycle but that movement is difficult to enjoy because it sounds so bizarre. If it's fine and intentional then I suppose I'll just grit my teeth and get used to it. I wanted to check here first though.
emotions conveyed in romantic music are the same as in baroque music
what is emotion without expressiveness though? if the the emotion conveyed in a piece of music is predicated on the manner of its expression, then distinctness of style does indeed = distinctness of emotion. you can't just lump emotions together because they're broadly similar to each other. a joyful romantic tune is not the same as a joyful baroque tune. the joy it conjures is not the same either. maybe it's more accurate to speak of feelings rather than emotions here though. emotions are very categorical things, sadness, happiness, etc., whereas feelings are infinitely gradated. you *feel* the difference between one performance of a work and another, but not as an emotion, just as a feeling. that is pivotal enough a point of sensibility to determine your preferences for one type of music over another imo.
don't recall asking cody
what is emotion without expressiveness though?
Literally Baroque music.
if the the emotion conveyed in a piece of music is predicated on the manner of its expression
It's not. Expressiveness is only a language or method of showing emotion, it is not emotion itself. And I already showed you the two extremes, one of which was highly expressive but emotionally dull, the other was not very expressive (stable form and harmonic clarity, consistent tempo, normal range of dynamics - as in not anything like ppp to fff in a single bar).
a joyful romantic tune is not the same as a joyful baroque tune
True. Never said it was the same.
you *feel* the difference between one performance of a work and another, but not as an emotion, just as a feeling.
Valid point.
Emotion is sudden, what you experience in present. Whereas feeling is a process.
You could say, that romantic music often relies on that momentum, emotional 'fist in your face', so to speak, and gradually you feel more of it. In baroque music, it's less sudden. You feel emotions gradually. I could see truth in that.
Favorite Schütz recordings?
hogwood
Which work?
Hey guys I have a piece of classical music stuck in my head and I don't know what it's called. The stupid google song search feature is absolutely not working. Perhaps you can help me figure out what the hell this is?
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i'm just doing a shtick, sorry
You're not singing the melody well enough, but rhythm sounds like Rachmaninoff's prelude in g:
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Here's a pastime for you: look up the birthplaces of some of your favorite Franco-Flemish polyphonists, then take a look at those places on a map, and find out how hilariously misguided you are with your "modern Netherlands".
I don’t care where a composer comes from, I just care about their music.
nah it was a much faster paced thing with violins
What do you think about the Complete Recording of Schütz by Dresdner Barockorchester under Hans-Christoph Rademann?
I really love this song
I need something else like Carl Vine.
He's really fun to listen to but also doesn't really have that many pieces outside of a few for piano and a few for orchestra :(
Piano Sonata 1
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concerto for orchestra
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Yoshimatsu comes close with his harmonies/melodic writing sometimes but is a bit too ambient and his pieces all kinda sound the same
The thing is that Heinrich Schütz's music is so emotionally direct that even cold fishes like Herreweghe and Suzuki can't muck it up
Is Hasse's Serpentes ignei in deserto any good?
gotta love bachdolatry
zing
i'm not humouring you anon, france lagged behind in late medieval music and instead of accepting the shame musicologists (again chiefly american) have tried to rewrite the era in their favour. it's a consistent pattern that also discolours biographies of rossini for example. on the balance, i don't much care save for when they try to claim they know better than js bach about his own music
does /classical/ also read books? if so, what are you reading?
not sure what this has to do with /classical/, maybe try ?
i know what they're reading. it's a question to the people specifically in this thread, and so /classical/-related. but no need to answer, i'm just curious.
I guess the last classical related book I read is pic related. Pretty good I'd say.
What are some good recordings featuring Michael Schopper? I think he's great.
Inching my way through Infinite Jest. If you don't mind walls of verbose text about drug recovery, bizarro politics/technology, and highly-functional dysfunctional family drama, it's a lot of fun.
a lot of schutz's music is a bit too solemn for me, desu. and when it isn't it usually just makes me want to listen to monteverdi instead.
If you know German it's pure bliss
was this due to wagner mania or did you have a more balanced reason for reading a biography?
What Wagner mania? I'm interested in his life and work, so I read this book, illuminated some things, the author is very knowledgeable and supported his text with a lot of good references.
Funny. I love Monteverdi's secular music (operas and madrigals) but I've always found his sacred music rather stale.
no offense. you just never know when someone brings him up
Schumann
Listen to some Mendelssohn instead
yeah, apart from the vespers which i love (and which is basically secular) i've only listened to his selva morale collection as far as his sacred music goes. it didn't grab me the same way as his madrigals or operas either.