/classical/

Beethoven's daily routine edition

This thread is for the discussion of music in the Western classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.

How do I get into classical?

This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:
pastebin.com/NBEp2VFh

Previously on /classical/:

Gergiev!

youtube.com/watch?v=wPjLQ0k8ij0&list=OLAK5uy_mmVcfMUqo7QW91DUuALfKcotPNEsCeQJI&index=1

full pic

Wagner is the riddle.

What's the answer?

Surprised he's not more popular. Second composer after Schnittke who strikes me as being like a better Shostakovich, and most normie classical fans love him.

I've tried so many Walton 1 recordings and they are almost all lacking the pulse and tightness of Previn, which is a pity since it's recorded in Dynagroove sound. A shame since it's likely the best English symphony that isn't Elgar 2.
youtu.be/Qg1tCLDHOCY?list=PLfPZvIvKEmV3TSSev60RSZJ6gnOr7v-k8

Have you tried the Previn/RCO one on Telarc?
youtube.com/watch?v=BH_Kd3hOSzQ&list=OLAK5uy_kUJeGDc11KYQfaeUh461K_NlNG3uRvM8o&index=1

Otherwise, perhaps Litton/Bournemouth?
youtube.com/watch?v=sFuIGh57INo&list=OLAK5uy_lOPXkbHPrWatYlJcMwPbfms8icgIckxOM&index=4

Litton is one of the recommendable ones and I like his Walton overall but it's definitely slacker than Previn, which may just be an issue of a second-tier orchestra with a demanding piece. I may have tried Previn's RPO recording but I don't remember so I'll give it another go.

milton would walk in his garden for 4 hours, as a blind man

How's this for an album cover?

Anyway here's Glen Gould
Beethoven Sonata 2
youtube.com/watch?v=wLjyQ7Tlc5Y&ab_channel=DanielPoulin

One supreme fact which I have discovered is that it is not willpower, but fantasy and imagination that creates. Imagination is the creative force. Imagination creates reality.

This is how artist's feel, but not conquerors.

Captain Obvious ova here. Wagner would later discover that water is indeed wet

Honestly there are a lot of people who will tell you art is more about elbow grease than inspiration so I'd say it's a contested question.

water isn't wet it only makes other things wet

the first time one hears the prelude to lohengrin is akin to a religious experience

Wagner nuts will seethe, but literally everything he wrote before Tristan is irrelevant.

After as well

Does anybody in real life have autistic "routines" like this?

another month, another new Goldberg Variations recording to try, this time Simone Dinnerstein's

youtube.com/watch?v=OcyeUBhuqvk&list=OLAK5uy_kjLhPxTpbgujJ5AVN1FIpVdrjVZxMGs6Y&index=1

youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kjLhPxTpbgujJ5AVN1FIpVdrjVZxMGs6Y

right off the bat, it comes across as a lyrical, introspective interpretation. unique and lovely, give it a try

If you want to be a serious artist, anon, it's extremely beneficial to that end.

forgive the shilling, but this is extraordinary, gotta share another part

youtube.com/watch?v=b18euPa1RXI&list=OLAK5uy_kjLhPxTpbgujJ5AVN1FIpVdrjVZxMGs6Y&index=4

wholeheartedly recommended (unless you're not into Bach on the piano, in which case you'll probably hate it)

youtube.com/watch?v=ZnjHoGPYw3c
Listening to a Biber

:3

Which symphonies shall I listen to today...

the first one

ok
youtube.com/watch?v=O6Bu7NRmW9g

Go through Mendelssohn's thirty something String symphonies and rank top 5

Was this the first symphony ever thoug?

Are those actually any good? They've been on my radar for a while.

I don't know, that's why I asked you to go through it so I don't have to :p Hurwitz likes them IIRC.
I'll listen to the ones you rec.

Wagner is the king.

As for Schmidt, well that’s a matter of taste and discrimination. A former cellist in Mahler’s Vienna Opera orchestra, Schmidt was an embittered Austrian whose constant resentments isolated him from the mainstream. In his last year of life, he became an enthusiastic Nazi. He is regarded by the Vienna Philharmonic as part of their symphonic heritage and several leading conductors evince enthusiasm for his four symphonies.

huh didn't know that

the reviewer goes on to give the recording one-star, but not because of the performance but because they're "not moved at all" by the music itself. I wonder if that quote has anything to do with it.

and listening on headphones I was troubled at first by the sound of traffic in the background near the beginning (though that is not nearly as irritating as the children’s playground that can be distantly heard at the end of the Chandos recording!).

lol? can't say I've ever experienced this before myself

shota choir! youtube.com/watch?v=oFvZi6HSV7I

This is what opera looks like these days

IIRC Richard Strauss considered Lohengrin the most masterfully instrumented music ever written.

shota choir!

Isn't that paedophile terminology?

Late romantic > classical > early romantic > baroque
Yes you heard that fucking right

modern being the best of all of course

No, modern sucks which is what makes it extra funny

Chopin being the exception, as he's above every single composer of course.

No I mean choir is a pretty standard term for a group of church singers

The idea of beethoven having any kind of a routine is funny as fuck

baroque > late romantic > early romantic > classical > modern

I am a mystery

Is it? Why?

Nah, rach is better than Chopin as an overall romantic composer, and I say that as a classically trained pianist kek. Although I still obviously prefer to play Chopin

It's just not realistic

I haven't listened deeply yet but I really enjoyed them.

Play us some etude or ballade and post on vocaroo anon.

How come Chords developed in 1700 europe
When Greeks Romans Arabs and Indians have been doing Notations for a long time

Actually did Baroque era Europeans Invent Chords or did they simply happen to give it a name and It was always something that people were aware of but didn't focus on?

A lot of things were discovered/invented by arabs and persians (mostly in maths and tech), but they never got credit for it.
What happened is European imperialism.

Because their discoveries weren't truly paradigmatic in the way that the progress of Western music in the early modern era was. The idea of a Near Eastern Golden Age while whitey wuz living in caves means very little. No one claims that Europeans invented musical notation.

but they never got credit for it.

Really? In my experience people seem to fall over themselves crediting them for it while reminding people how they never get credit for it

progress of Western music

That happened, again, because of imperialism, which resulted in vast amounts of resources and wealth. This gave Europe a huge momentum, which has been on the decline since early 20th century.
Not sure what you mean.

I only have a shitty clacky digital piano at home, I won't record that, so you'll have to wait until sunday, I'll be visiting some relatives who have a small grand

Iirc the Middle Eastern Discoveries during the Islamic age is more about adding depth to Modality while Europeans abandoned All Modes for a few centuries to focus on Harmony, only returning to Modality in The Romantic Era

I always heard the focus on Harmony came from the Dominance of Georgian Chants, what's the summary for that development?

It sounds like you're making the case for imperialism. I agree.

Oh come on, we can handle some shitty digital piano, it is at least better than clavichord, right?

Why not?

Just record the audio out not the clacky plastic keys

This is an enormous cope. European music and mathematics did not progress because of resources and wealth. We aren't talking about domains which scale like that. The invention of calculus didn't happen because Newton/Leibniz had a lot of money stolen from Indians.
Yes, Persian/Indian music is based on modality and is often microtonal. I wouldn't say Gregorian chant caused this since it's monophonic but early European polyphony was initially written on themes from Gregorian chant. At that time however the church modes were still in use. Common practice tonality doesn't emerge until the baroque period.

enormous cope.

No, It is just ignorance from your side.

The invention of calculus didn't happen because Newton/Leibniz had a lot of money stolen from Indians.

Correct. But in deep economic, sociological and philisophical discussions, no one makes direct parellels like this. The invention of calculus happened because Europe had far more geniuses which were far more intelligent than anyone else in the world. Something Europe lacks today, relative to a century ago. Geniuses don't poof out of thin air, they are a product of highly intelligent societies who procreate (as opposed to modern day Europe, where the upper class and intelligent do not procreate). To achieve this sort of socio-economic conditions, a nation needs resources, lots of it. So much that it's impracticable to satisfty the condition with the technologies of pre-industrial Europe.

Is Microtonality really Incompatible with Chords?

now playing

start of Suk: Asrael Symphony in C Minor, Op. 27
youtube.com/watch?v=BV-MrEILTRk&list=OLAK5uy_n3UqP8LPH9DG01mP4yN67nPE_cnpyN4pU&index=2

start of Suk: Pohádka, Op. 16
youtube.com/watch?v=rqIXMXDwRAg&list=OLAK5uy_n3UqP8LPH9DG01mP4yN67nPE_cnpyN4pU&index=6

youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_n3UqP8LPH9DG01mP4yN67nPE_cnpyN4pU&si=f2I9ZiPbchnRUEah

Firstly, Europe wasn’t industrialised at the time of Bach or even Mozart. Secondly, you have shifted the goalposts by evolving your initial argument into a deterministic chain beginning with Europe having wealth; there are of course plenty of wealthy places that clearly don’t fulfil these extra conditions. Convenient how your claim changed from “Europe achieved progress in maths and music because of wealth and resources” at the point when you had to produce more conditions than the single factor. It is a gotcha that only makes the cope more obvious because you framed an abundance of geniuses as simply a question of having a lot of money.
It doesn’t fit well into Western harmony, no. Obviously there are examples from the twentieth century however, as well as in jazz etc.

water torture

I am in a world, where I am taking a stroll in a beautiful park built by the divine, suddenly my legs feel tired and request to stop. Cordially I went on ahead to sit under the shade of a chestnut tree. My fatigue washes away from me as I slip into my imaginative daydreaming, I can hear the melancholic chirping of the sparrows and the water flowing from the creeks, feel the gust of a chilly wind approaching my face, smell the rejuvenating fragrance of the good earth. But then I realize I was just listening to the start of Lohengrin. I a poor soul, venerate the gods for creating such beauty and allowing an inferior soul like me to experience it!

youtu.be/oxqyUW2txQw

Western Harmony

the thing is
In spite of the whole "Arabs and Indian music is Modal" thing, I feel some "Progression" in them in a similar way to Western Baroque Music

Even if it's more "fluid"

That's why today Saudia Arabia with its oil wealth is more intelligent than a country lacking in natural resources, say, Japan, right? haha...

thirdie cope

At least in the Indian case, that may be because a raga isn't strictly analogous to what we usually call 'modes' and does usually change over the course of a performance; the ascending and descending scale is different, and different pitches may be emphasised at different times. So it's not not like in Western music where there's movement through key areas, but there may be some harmonic change going on despite being more repetitious than Western music.

he thinks geniuses and artistic renaissances are produced by intelligent people having more children

Embarrassing conception of world history.

Saudi actually invested heavily in High Tech and have been diversifying their economy

That joke stopped making sense like 15 years ago, Iraq and Libya and Algeria are the ones depending heavily on Oil, not to mention dozens of Africa countries who's economy is somehow Still Agricultural

Europe wasn’t industrialised at the time of Bach or even Mozart

Wow, great way to miss the entire point of my post. No shit it wasn't industrialized. Try re-reading and then reply with a more coherent post, not reading an argument starting off with this strawman.
You don't seem very bright, actually don't bother replying.

Saudi Arabia

Live in post-industrial society, mind you. And they recently got wealthy, not over a century ago.

Japan

Midwit: the country. Japanese having higher average intelligence means next to nothing when their guassian curve of intelligence looks like a stick.
From a much better European country than you I assure you.

produced by intelligent people having more children

Afraid that's how it is.

Decent dodges, I rate 5 and 6 respectively

No one dodges your ignorance anon.

I'm starting to understand why the sisterposter thinks you're Indian.

To achieve this sort of socio-economic conditions, a nation needs resources, lots of it. So much that it's impracticable to satisfty the condition with the technologies of pre-industrial Europe.

These are your own words suggesting that it's impracticable to satisfy the conditions of socio-economic conditions which produce geniuses on the level of Bach, Newton, Mozart with pre-industrial technologies. Even if I assume you misspoke (it is after all a pedantic point), all of this still wouldn't remove the way you shifted the goalposts and then dodged addressing it.

You effortlessly dodge the compulsion to be honest that all souled humans feel

These are your own words suggesting that it's impracticable to satisfy the conditions of socio-economic conditions which produce geniuses on the level of Bach, Newton, Mozart with pre-industrial technologies

...WITHOUT colonising. Do I really need to say that out loud? The talk was about imperialism, care to put your brain to work?

I'm always honest to anyone who's being honest back to me.

You said technologies when you meant resources, so yes, it does require qualification. Resources do not bequeath technology. Again, plenty of colonisation and resource accumulation has happened throughout history without the corresponding tech progress in Europe. It's also rather questionable how this even applies to someone like Bach. Much of the most intense progress in music happened distant from the vast seafaring empires with the greatest wealth.

Bach wasn't some rich kid
The Islamic Golden Age had a lot of people who furthered The Music theory of The Islamic world which was a continuation of The Greek Music theory which probably came from Phoenicians and the list goes on

They just didn't focus on Harmony because why would they

It's like Asking why they weren't doing Ballads instead of Mawwals

I know Mendelssohn was a prodigy and all, but his writing them when he was between 12-14 makes me a bit skeptical.

Ordinarily I'd agree, but Mendelssohn was easily the greatest child prodigy in music. Probably the only case where you can't just leave out the early works as juvenilia, even more than Mozart. The first String Symphonies especially are clearly learning works but by the last entries it's just great Mendelssohn. Start with those and work backwards if you're unsure.

Liar
If you look at other child prodigy composers I think he's at least as good as 12-14 year old Mozart and Schubert, even better imo

Zubin Mehta is still alive? Huh. And he's conducting Bruckner's 8th with the LA Phil. between Nov. 7th-9th!? Damn if only I still lived in Cali. If you do, you owe it to yourself to go!

You said technologies when you meant resources,

No. I said technologies when I meant technologies. Post-industrial technologies is what allowed us to have our own (vast amounts of) resources, independent from colonies.

Resources do not bequeath technology.

Obviously.

plenty of colonisation and resource accumulation has happened throughout history without the corresponding tech progress in Europe.

Not quite. You're right on the most part, but every technological and socio-economical progress that was ever made (roman empire, british empire) is directly linked to or happened at the same time as colonizations. That has to be enough to make you at least ponder if what I'm saying is true.
How about the late string symphonies? Are they not worth checking out?

Yeah but I don't listen to those guys' juvenilia works either. But fine, you all have convinced me, I'll find a recording and give some of them a listen later today.

Opus 1 will probably be enough to convince you. Not as good as his mature works but worth a couple listens

did you guys know schönberg is a hack and it was actually Liszt who invented 12 tone music?
Proof:
youtu.be/tYKl41e_hoU

Mendelssohn would first meet Robert Schumann in 1835; they were to be life-long colleagues and friends. Within a few years, Schumann, writing in letters, would describe Mendelssohn as "a god among men" and would go on to say:

Mendelssohn I consider to be the first musician of the day; I doff my hat to him as my superior. He plays with everything, especially with the grouping of instruments in the orchestra, but with such ease, delicacy, and art, with such mastery throughout.

neat

After Schumann discovered a lost symphony among the papers of the deceased Franz Schubert, it was Mendelssohn who edited a working score and conducted in 1839 the premiere performance of what we now know to be Schubert's Ninth Symphony, the "Great" C major.

what!? I had no clue about this

Yeah Mendelssohn is a hero for that and Bach

my personal fave
youtube.com/watch?v=Rv0Dm-Af27k

That reminds me that Slatkin/LPO is also one of the contenders. Haven't heard this recording however.

Wagner is the lord.

did you know that every close wagner fan was inevitably cucked by him? lmao
also fun fact: wagner was an illegal immigrant (literally)

Wagner raped your mind.

he did yours, considering you're bootlicking him this badly

also fun fact: wagner was an illegal immigrant (literally)

You have no theory of mind for the person you're talking to if you think that means anything to him, learn Empathy.

being empathetic towards wagnercucks

nice paradox there

Wagner RAPED your head. You cant comprehend anything else but Wagner, when you wake up, you think of Wagner, WAGNER WAGNER WAGNER is all your life amounts too.

Just look at him, I can't seriously blame you.

Just look at him, so reserved and humble.

You know it's not a terrible correlation though. Take the three B's
Bach:
The Eighth child
Beethoven
Had 6 siblings only one other survived
BMozart
Same as Beethoven

Just look at him. Holy shit. JUST LOOK AT HIM!

HOLY FUCKING SHIT, just look at him. FUCKING HELL, I AM FUCKING GAY.

did you guys know schönberg is a hack

Yes

and it was actually Liszt who invented 12 tone music?

No

On a side note there's a really subtle sounding (possibly nasal)whistle on this recording so that when I listen to on headphones I always think it's me whistling out my nose but it it isn't and it always bothers me

Imagine being filtered by Schoenberg.

Wagner is The Unanswered Question

You may be past the point of no return..

did shostakovich even write anything other than a bunch of shit socialist symphonies

His chamber music is a bit better I guess. Not crazy about it.

Yes, he wrote one of the most beautiful concerto movements in existence.
youtu.be/JlMHjo7Jwhk

I was only reminded that Schoenberg is indeed a hack with incoherent form. And that Liszt piece actually got me intrigued, wow. I should really spend way more time with Liszt. Where are more gems like this?

these days

posts half-century-old opera

Szymanowski is one of the most important, unique, fascinating, and overlooked composers of the first third of the 20th century. Please take a moment to appreaciate Szymanowski.
youtube.com/watch?v=3k6Ad3F3_mg
youtube.com/watch?v=II6KQXv8nns
youtube.com/watch?v=s_HC_NLVHts
youtube.com/watch?v=ShqaKRv3tZ8
youtube.com/watch?v=KGQz868v4lo
youtube.com/watch?v=RBKQ1w-VqSw
youtube.com/watch?v=Uvre-WnH9jw
youtube.com/watch?v=1b7MSNVruBo
youtube.com/watch?v=jCvcMcxMGek
youtube.com/watch?v=uT00G955oUg
youtube.com/watch?v=nUSToo_LQWY
youtube.com/watch?v=3-odw1ROAzw
youtube.com/watch?v=I-QOcXf5ypM
youtube.com/watch?v=zHfS4FwXTPw

liszt is shit

the 5th, 7th, and 10th are among the peaks of 20th century symphonic music.

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate constitution

faux-mahlerian slop

Correct.

I heard the First Cello Concerto twice over the years, and I am not saying that it made me physically sick or anything like that, but Tchaikovsky was more radical than Shostakovich. I heard the Fifth Symphony a few years back here in Chicago; it is so conventional. And Symphony Fifteen, this business of long quotes from Rossini, what a poor excuse for some imagination. If we are to play Shostakovich, why not Hindemith?

You know, in the history of music, there are composers without whom the face of music would be completely different, and composers whom if they had never existed, it would have made no difference whatsoever.

Peep this recording:
youtube.com/watch?v=roFXldnkMqA&list=OLAK5uy_mre2DKP3bVu0mUf-LI9FFWNw3xTttYCZA&index=3

Then there's his Transcendental Etudes, Annees de pelerinage, Hungarian Rhapsodies, Harmonies de religious, and some other handful of shorter works. Oh, and his Sonata in B minor.

another great recording
youtube.com/watch?v=njz2KIfBqoU&list=OLAK5uy_nslsSv1Mx0P7gy6R-4WFfbew-WeshO92w&index=2

youtube.com/watch?v=OVKTEoxBIKE&list=OLAK5uy_nslsSv1Mx0P7gy6R-4WFfbew-WeshO92w&index=9

enjoy!

mahler

Fourth-rate Wagner.

It's almost like it's Socialist Realism or something

Boulez was unparalleled at musical insults.

and he was right (most of the time)

speaking of Mahler, came across his buddy Hans Rott today

youtube.com/watch?v=s3lNzkW9QGs&list=OLAK5uy_k-_Lk8qGHW1evMZU_6HQMP2Vw0LgSg8j0&index=1

Mahler wrote of Rott:

a musician of genius ... who died unrecognized and in want on the very threshold of his career. ... What music has lost in him cannot be estimated. Such is the height to which his genius soars in ... [his] Symphony [in E major], which he wrote as 20-year-old youth and makes him ... the Founder of the New Symphony as I see it. To be sure, what he wanted is not quite what he achieved. … But I know where he aims. Indeed, he is so near to my inmost self that he and I seem to me like two fruits from the same tree which the same soil has produced and the same air nourished. He could have meant infinitely much to me and perhaps the two of us would have well-nigh exhausted the content of new time which was breaking out for music.[1]

died at 25 apparently, rip. at least we have this one symphony

Why would you listen to anyone other than Leslie Howard play Liszt?

Every Tchaikovsky theme I've ever heard has made me feel like it was written by a man who believes dogs go to heaven.

Familiar with most of these already, but thanks will check them out. Nuages gris is what I'm after, it was absolutely exquisite, almost modernist. I need hidden gem Liszt works that sound like it.

Why would you listen to Liszt at all

It's extra hilarious that he fits the second category so well

composers whom if they had never existed, it would have made no difference whatsoever.

For the final year of his studies in 1878, Rott submitted the first movement of his Symphony in E major to a composition contest. The jury, except Bruckner, was very derisive of the work. After completing the Symphony in 1880, Rott showed the work to both Brahms and Hans Richter, in order to get it played. His efforts failed. Brahms did not like the fact that Bruckner exerted great influence on the Conservatory students, and even told Rott that he had no talent whatsoever and that he should give up music. Unfortunately, Rott lacked Mahler's inner resolve, and whereas Mahler was able to overcome many of the obstacles in his life, Rott was brought down by mental illness.

Rott began to evidence persecutory delusions. In October 1880, while on a train journey, he reportedly threatened another passenger with a revolver, claiming that Brahms had filled the train with dynamite. Rott was committed to a mental hospital in 1881, where despite a brief recovery he sank into depression. By the end of 1883 a diagnosis recorded "hallucinatory insanity, persecution mania—recovery no longer to be expected." He died of tuberculosis in 1884, aged 25. Many well-wishers, including Bruckner and Mahler, attended Rott's funeral at the Zentralfriedhof in Vienna.

Thanks, Brahms!

youtu.be/bBz4tEIM_C4

Listened to your first 6 links last night, I liked the nocturne and tarantella and symphony no. 3

If you had to pick only one Liszt interpreter for some reason, it'd have to be Bolet. Howard is aiight too tho

How does Classical feel about Grieg?

youtu.be/2aKxf1h5r4g
youtu.be/bR3N1yBEGbw

Wagner is the deity.

Romance Oubliée, Unstern!, Die Trauer-Gondel, Schlaflos! Frage Und Antwort, Bagatelle Sans Tonalité, Abschied - Russisches Volkslied
Glad to hear that! No comment on the Metopes, though?

claiming that Brahms had filled the train with dynamite.

LMAO imagine hearing that

I'm gonna include a similar scene in my novel. And again, RIP Rott (inb4 'Rott in Hell' jokes)

tfw don't quite 'get' the third part of Liszt's Annees de pelerinage yet

I keep returning to it though, it'll click eventually.

youtube.com/watch?v=go_SrQ0RQKA&list=OLAK5uy_kpy1v_Z1a_kzydUESqSPKChmRxktBPWmI&index=18

Nah, Howard all the way. Not just an amazing interpreter, but an authoritative scholar.

Socialist Realism

not applicable to music

Also absolutel retarded, anybody who claims Shostakovichs music is socialist is a sub 50IQ brainlet

Fine, I'll spend the next few days listening to her Liszt recordings, some I've heard before and some I haven't. I really don't think she's that definitive though but we'll see, I'll trust you. There's many, many great Liszt pianists and recordings in my opinion, no reason to restrain yourself to just one. I have a handful of recordings of Harmonies poétiques et religieuses I frequently go to, for example.

youtube.com/watch?v=p1Qo4V-SA_M&list=OLAK5uy_lNkvveCDqc_x8XuDhop7FCv9OBZOmZPjA&index=6

Just one would be silly. But hey, when you know what you like you know what you like, so I guess I get it.

Quiet, child
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_realism#Music

Fearful that he was about to be arrested, Shostakovich secured an appointment with the Chairman of the USSR State Committee on Culture, Platon Kerzhentsev, who reported to Stalin and Molotov that he had instructed the composer to "reject formalist errors and in his art attain something that could be understood by the broad masses", and that Shostakovich had admitted being in the wrong and had asked for a meeting with Stalin, which was not granted.

Shotaconbitch bucked under stalinist fear and wrote Socialist Realist music for most of his life.

On 10 January 1948, more than 70 composers, musicians and music lecturers were summoned to a three-day conference in the Kremlin, to be lectured by the communist party's chief ideologist Andrei Zhdanov on how to write music. As one of the main speakers, Khrennikov backed the party line, and attacked all three of the greatest composers present, Dmitri Shostakovich, Sergei Prokofiev and Khachaturian. Years later, he defended his behaviour by telling a BBC correspondent: "They told me - they forced me - to read out that speech attacking Shostakovich and Prokofiev. What else could I have done? If I had refused, it would have been curtains for me."[10]

:(

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikhon_Khrennikov

he doesn't understand the intricacy of Shostakovich clowning and parodying the Soviet state in his music

Maybe be quiet, musically and tonality deaf babby

her

wtf I always thought because of the "Leslie" it was a woman. None of his recordings have a picture of the pianist on them! Damn this is the second time this has happened to me, like when I thought Marin Alsop was a man initially too.

Defending shotaconbitch only reveals you to be the "tonality deaf" babby, and ironically a clown and a parody of anyone musically inclined. Enjoy your soviet slop.

Bet you don't even play a classical instrument yet try to act as any sort of authority on here

I always thought because of the "Leslie" it was a woman

Surely you can't be serious.

deflecting as hard as his bones can take it

meet my arbitrary criteria or you're not valid!

mmmuuh authority

Typical sovietslop lover

What else could I have done?

He should have died. Coward.

au contraire, I find Shostakovich to be strikingly original. I wish there more composers with his sound, especially of his symphonies and piano music.

1977 truly was almost half a century ago

on the contrary, because of my opinion

Your opinion is shit, just like that stalinist slop composer

To be fair, considering the postmodern world, that's exactly what opera ought to look like in the 70s.

Okay :) I'll continue to enjoy his music, I hope you come around someday!

Here, this one's both a few years younger, and one of the greatest operas ever composed, you le wrong genaration moron.
youtube.com/watch?v=0TufQgNdfss

hope you come

Miss me with that gay shit, shotacon-lover

thanks coomer

Well yeah, that was the whole point of the opera

Mendelssohn was a pretty cute femboy

dude looks greek

I don't think you understand what that word means
Now THAT'S a coomer post. Probably a Shotaconbitch fan

I know, I'm saying it's doing what art does, reflecting the state of the world. So not only is there nothing wrong with it, as the poster was suggesting, but it's about what I'd expect. Maybe something a tad more listenable would be nice, but otherwise.

I think it's pretty good musically. Definitely one of the better works of the second half of the century. This one though, that I completely forgot about, IS indeed infinitely better.

lol

finna take a Xanax and listen to some Debussy and Ravel

music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kcs-OOGQ_6pmUQfOpvqOIZ0cxTX-vqlIc&si=SIC4VKHKShfQiSfB

Boulez on other composers (direct quotations):

Brahms

"a bore”

Tchaikovsky

“abominable”

Verdi

“stupid, stupid, stupid!”

Schoenberg

"most ostentatious and obsolete romanticism”

Webern

“too simple”

Berg

“bad taste”

Ravel

“affectation”

Shostakovich

"a second, or even third, pressing of Mahler"

contemporary twelve-tone music

"overrun by number-fanatics engaging in frenetic arithmetic masturbation”

Messiaen

“brothel music”

John Cage

“performing monkey"

Stockhausen

“hippie"

American minimalism

“a supermarket aesthetic”

American serialism

“a cashier’s point of view”

whoops meant to link directly to this
youtube.com/watch?v=94oJHPbM63M&list=OLAK5uy_kcs-OOGQ_6pmUQfOpvqOIZ0cxTX-vqlIc&index=36

what a faggot

not applicable to music

Buddy are you fucking retarded? Regardless of the Shostakovich argument, socialist reaism in music is a VERY REAL THING

Don't forget that at several points of his life he had nothing but praise for most of those composers. The man was the very definition of a posturing, edgy contrarian cunt.

Incredibly based

i'm for him. now that's a composer i can stand behind.

John Cage

“performing monkey"

American minimalism

“a supermarket aesthetic”

American serialism

“a cashier’s point of view”

Even a broken clock etc

Speaking of "Socialist Realism"

Eisler
youtu.be/zrB1_vn2L30

finna

if you could hear what plays in our supermarkets now...you'd yearn for that supermarket music to return..

Unironically the most based Requiem of the 20th century

Oh, no thank you
Doesn't change the fact that it's supermarket music for new age moms
Ok commie

Piano anon here, ever wanted to hear a shepherds tone performed irl?

Ligeti makes it possible: youtu.be/bpOubpwv0CQ

That's such a strange thing to ask just to post some tinktonk by Ligeti

I've always liked Ligeti's Etudes. Very appealing.

youtube.com/watch?v=CQK4EOlEpps&list=OLAK5uy_kJfqVWC9xA9w-ivCV4l6xKsV0hIeiCpNE&index=7

Wang

Ligeti

coomers are hopeless

now playing, a composer I hadn't heard of, randomly came across this piece

start of Reinhold Glière: Symphony No. 3 in B Minor, Op. 42, "Ilya Muromets"
youtube.com/watch?v=Y9hkEghpQ8I&list=OLAK5uy_mFtkrlFklYmTKW2ewzer_CYLpyklSPCpw&index=1

youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mFtkrlFklYmTKW2ewzer_CYLpyklSPCpw

Glière (1875-1956) was one of the late Russian nationalists, along with Rimsky-Korsakov and Glazunov, whose music collectively captures the waning years of Romanticism in Russia. Glières Symphony No. 3, Ilya Muromets, of 1912 takes its thematic cues from Richard Wagner, particularly Wagners German nationalism in such tales as the Nibelungenlied. Ilya Muromets is a hero of Russias golden age--similar to Odysseus and Achilles--and the symphony paints the tale of his moody adventures and his lifelong journeying. It is probably Glières greatest symphony, imbued with the sense of something irretrievably lost because of the rise of Communism. ---- Paul Cook

yeah he's got some good stuff. i really latched onto the red poppy during my brief ballet phase

One community reviewer writes:

Atmospheric a combination in style between Wagner's best bits the orchestral interludes and Prokofiev Alexander Nevsky without the singing. Sometimes though it falls into Janacek Taras Bulba and strangely Bruckner's Symphony #4 I think it is the recurring themes but still well worth listening to.

lol that's a hell of a combination.

I'll add and listen to that one too, thanks.

confession: I really don't think Debussy's Preludes are that good

imbued with the sense of something irretrievably lost because of the rise of Communism

Check out Luria/Lourié while on the subject
youtube.com/watch?v=0gu2kj7cq0U
youtube.com/watch?v=8Sb95ER-V3E
youtube.com/watch?v=EaaF6N8LVzg
youtube.com/watch?v=bodv0SgOIgI

no one cares what you think

Neat, I'll check those out once this symphony ends in, uh, another 55 minutes or so, lol.

imbued with the sense of something irretrievably lost because of the rise of Communism.

Pure ideology.

*sniff*

it was a tactic to get someone to talk about the Preludes, why they love them, and what makes them so great

Get fucked

greatest living philosopher

A title almost as impressive as "greatest living fast-food worker"

doesn't appreciate the importance of philosophy

You might not even be human. Philosophy is the second highest pursuit of mankind after art.

Okay faggot, can I get my cheeseburger or what?

Nietzsche is the last philosopher; all post-nietzschean philosophy is philology or something not metaphysical. When Nietzsche kills God, he ends all metaphysics and thus philosophy in its older definition. What's left is the search for the Being and existentialism. Both are reactions to the destruction of metanarratives implied by Nietzsche's death of God and Zarathustra. The death of God (see Heidegger's Holzwege) is the end of metaphysics; Zarathustra is the end of philosophy; Zarathustra is not a philosopher nor does he practice philosophy; Zarathustra has gotten past philosophy. Thus, as mentioned hitherto, these two currents (existentialism and the search for the Being) are reactions to the destruction of metanarratives of philosophy.

Existentialists react by saying they're thrown into the world and start crying around like pansies, before 'revolting' and thus finding an excuse to live.

German phenomenologists react by getting their shit together, deconstructing metaphysics to reach the Being and chill out with Hitler.

Nietzsche is the last philosopher

lol what a dogshit way for philosophy to bite the dust

t. youtu.be/hIdsjNGCGz4?si=qrxCTwqMzKTeUu1o&t=184

Not sure what this has to do with /classical/, maybe try instead?

Heidegger's great, but there's still Deleuze, Zizek, Levinas, Baudrillard, MacIntyre... aiight I'm getting too Anon Babble here.

Wittgenstein did way with Nietszche, with the things Nietzsche had only done away with in appearance, and then does away with himself. Philosophy has never been anything more than a confused hallucination by the monkey that believes in ghosts.
Highest as in "irremediably on drugs", sure.
Hacks, all of them.

jewliwood schlop

On *my* /classical/?

Deleuze, Zizek, Levinas, Baudrillard, MacIntyre...

crap. all of it.

How can people who listen to classical not be into philosophy, or at least understand its importance and value? Next y'all are gonna tell me you don't read literature or poetry.

Because I'm into it and understand how important it was, I can see how dead it is and how deluded every philosopher ever has been. It's like growing up reading books not realising they're fiction, until one day you do. Haven't stopped liking them, haven't stopped realising how important they are, but now I understand them well enough to see that they're make-believe.

How can people who listen to classical

At least 50% of this thread is just Anon Babbletards who listen to classical music because it's le heckin' based

Still waiting for that burger, boy. Am I going to have to call a manager?
Takes one etc

Takes one etc

Not really, with the amount of seething that this thread does over Jews or anything after the romantic era

Good point, I was setting my expectations too high. Thanks for setting me straight.

You realize you are required to learn philosophy at literally any decent university, right?

appeal to authority

Delicious

...what? The point was successful people and elites are familiar with and appreciate philosophy. If you had read some books, your reading comprehension would be better.

poetry

well im not a faggot so
lol u fucking wish

successful people and elites are familiar with and appreciate philosophy

It's true that Nietzsche is the last philosopher, but not so much because of the death of metaphysics but rather because the distinctive characteristic of Western philosophy since the Greeks has been the idea of nature (in opposition to nomos). Schopenhauer and subsequently Nietzsche were the vestige of this tradition. "Philosophy" outside of this is not really distinguishable from religion.

Because it's my favorite music. I've read English translations of Greek and Russian classics but other than that I've read lots of 20th century fantasy/scifi and I read tons of manga in LNs (in Japanese, of course) because it's fun like classical music. I did read a 1700 page compilation of the socratic dialogues and a few of Nietzsche's books, but I don't really care about philosophy.

lol this nigga truly thinks the millionares and billionares in the media and in positions of power out there read kant or whatever keep coping lol lmao even
lmao weeb rofl

the philosophy hater is the Abbado poster

Hello Anon Babble, can you please direct me to the /classical/ general please, I seem to have lost my way at some point

Now that's a deep cut

Nah, I've also used that picture before. Also holy mother of grudges anon

Modern high culture is as much a set of footnotes to Wagner as Western philosophy is, in Whitehead’s judgement, footnotes to Plato.

Abbadofags

lmao

lmao that thread was hilarious

Abbado's Mahler 9 *is* pretty good though. I'd say it's an 8.5/10

Hey fellas, so I couldn't get back to the thread yesterday but saw that apparently, the conductor does in fact make a big difference. Different musicians playing a piece? Sure, that made sense to me. But conductors? Some of the most well known pieces could have potentially dozens of recordings if not more. I really got my work cut out for me, hahaha.

Gimme some 19th century composers to start my odyssey. Gotta have Beethoven, cause I've heard of him, and of course through cultural osmosis I got an inkling of some of his more famous pieces. Who else? What's his name, Mendehlsson? Schubert? Liszt? No idea where to start. I just wanna start slowly moving through time up to the present.

here's a good introduction I always copy+paste:

Try Beethoven's 3rd and 7th and then 9th symphonies. Mozart 39, 40, 41. Tchaikovsky 4 and 6. Dvorak 8 and 9. Schumann's and Brahms' symphonies, Haydn's Paris Symphonies, Bruckner's 5th and 7th and 8th, Mendelssohn's 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto no. 1. Beethoven piano concerto 4 and 5. Mozart piano concertos 19 through 27. Bach's Keyboard Concertos (I prefer the versions with piano, look up the ones performed by Schiff). Schumann's Piano Concerto. Rachmaninoff's other piano concertos (1, 3, 4).

Beethoven and Brahms' and Tchaikovsky's and Dvorak's and Mendelssohn's violin concerto. Bach's violin concertos and double concerto.

Beethoven's violin sonata 7, 8, 9, and 10. Bach's violin sonatas and partitas (1, 2, and 3 for both). Mozart's violin sonatas. Brahms' violin sonatas.

Dvorak's cello concerto. Schumann's. Haydns'. Beethoven's cello sonata 3 and 4. Brahms' cello sonatas. Bach's cello suites. Prokofiev cello sonata. Mendelssohn cello sonata 2.

Beethoven's piano sonatas, all of the ones that have a named title (eg Pathetique, Waldstein, Moonlight, Les Adiuex, Tempest). some Mozart piano sonatas. Bach's Well Tempered Clavier, both books. Schubert's piano sonatas D.960 and 959 and 958(?). Prokofiev piano sonata 6. Chopin Ballades and Etudes 10 and 25.

Beethoven's string quartets 12-16. Mozart's 'Haydn' string quartets and string quintets. Brahms' string quintets. Dvorak's string quartet 12. Mendelssohn string quartet 6.

Bach's cantatas, 51 and 140.

Try a couple from each and keep exploring whichever form you like the most at that moment. Feel free to come back and ask whenever you can't decide and/or need help deciding on recordings (the recording, as in the interpretation and performance, matters a ton, as it can change the sound, power, and emotions of the music dramatically). Come back when you've listened to it all. Enjoy!

Whitehead's a retard, and so are you

But conductors? Some of the most well known pieces could have potentially dozens of recordings if not more. I really got my work cut out for me, hahaha.

Yeah, before I got into classical, it was always one of the largest barriers for me because the task of trying to find the 'right' recording and potentially 'wasting time' on a poor one was daunting and impenetrable when you don't have much of a reference point. Before long though you realize it's part of the experience and fun, as think of it this way: you don't just listen to, say, Beethoven's 9th and know it, with every listen being the same experience from then on -- rather, with each different performance comes its own experience. It's not only Beethoven's 9th, but Karajan's Beethoven's 9th, Szell's Beethoven's 9th, Fricsay's Beethoven's 9th, Bernstein's Beethoven's 9th, Bohm's Beethoven's 9th, and so on, you feel? You extend that out and you can see how it can enhance the listening experience.

It's tough at the beginning when you don't recognize any conductors and don't have any preference or know the names, but once you start trying a few, you begin to pick up quickly. best of luck and enjoy. Any questions on recordings, well, you can always ask here, that's what we're here for.

Baudelaire:

I found in those of his works which are translated, particularly in Tannhäuser, Lohengrin and the Flying Dutchman, an excellent method of construction, a spirit of order and division which recalls the architecture of ancient tragedies.

Whitman:

I am again consumed with regret for knowing I have never had a chance to hear the wonderful operas. I say 'wonderful' because I feel that they are constructed on my lines—attach themselves to the same theories of art that have been responsible for Leaves of Grass.

let's try Thibaudet's Debussy. the set starts out with the Preludes. I've read a couple negative reviews on the set but mostly positive, and every other time I've listened to Thibaudet's recordings it's been great, so we'll see

start of Debussy: Préludes
youtube.com/watch?v=CWWfsX1eePk&list=OLAK5uy_kcs-OOGQ_6pmUQfOpvqOIZ0cxTX-vqlIc&index=1

youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kcs-OOGQ_6pmUQfOpvqOIZ0cxTX-vqlIc

Villiers de l'Isle-Adam:

He is the very man of whom we have dreamed; he is a genius such as appears upon the earth once every thousand years.

forgot pic

Yeats:

Wagner's dramas are becoming to Germany what the Greek Tragedies were to Greece.

Strauss:

Tristan does not, as you believe, represent the "dazzling resurrection" of romanticism, but the end of all romanticism, as it brings into focus the longing of the entire 19th century, longing which is finally released in the Tag- und Nachtsgeprach and in Isolde's Liebestod. . . Tristan is the ultimate conclusion of Schiller and Goethe and the highest fulfilment of a development of the theatre stretching over 2,000 years.

Junger:

Thoughts about the mighty mind of the dramatist who breathes artificial breath into past ages and dead cultures so that they move like corpses we can quote. A sorcerer of the highest order who conjures with real blood at the gates of the underworld.

Lévi-Strauss:

[Wagner is] the undeniable father of the structural analysis of myth

Auden:

[Wagner is] perhaps the greatest genius that ever lived

damn, all these quotes make me think I should really try getting into opera

Joyce:

There are indeed hardly more than a dozen original themes in world LITERATURE ... Tristan und Isolde is an example of an original theme.

Hauptmann

[The Ring is] perhaps the most mystifying work of art of the last few thousand years

Mallarme:

Oh strange defiance hurled at poets by him who has usurped their duty with the most open and splendid audacity: Richard Wagner!

Strindberg:

In reading Wagner's Rheingold, I discover a great poet, and understand now why I have not comprehended the greatness of this musician, whose music is the only proper accompaniment to his words.

D'Annunzio:

In articulating our need for metaphysics, [Wagner] has revealed to us a hidden part of our interior life.

Nietzsche:

Through Wagner modernity speaks her most intimate language: it conceals neither its good nor its evil: it has thrown off all shame. And, conversely, one has almost calculated the whole of the value of modernity once one is clear concerning what is good and evil in Wagner.

I recommend you find any kind of domain you're comfortable to use as a launching pad. Whether it's a composer you like, a genre you like (such as symphony or concerto or string quartet or piano sonata), or a performing/recording artist you like(it sounds weird, but it is possible to fall in love with a particular artist or group's sound, which makes it easy to use them as a bridge to other pieces/composers) If you find one you can naturally branch out from there. Everyone is going to recommend you different pieces as their ideal 'entry-level' works they'd recommend to a beginner. I have my own set that differ from others. Just go with basically anything anyone is recommending you at random and you probably won't go wrong. Just repeat until you find yourself uncontrollably exploring more on your own without following recommendations, then you'll know you're in.

Weininger:

[Wagner is] the greatest man since Christ’s time

What's the theme of Tristan and what makes it unique?

This just in: Hacks attract the praise of other hacks

Joyce went through a short Wagnerian phase in his youth, saying in his 1900 lecture, 'Drama and Life', 'Even the least part of Wagner – his music – is beyond Bellini.' By 1914, he had reversed this opinion.

Joyce had no patience with the current adulation of Wagner, objecting that 'Wagner puzza di sesso' (stinks of sex). Bellini he said was far better.
Ellmann, James Joyce, 382

I looked up Wagner in the index to Portraits of the Artist in Exile (ed Potts) and found 'J dislikes', with four entries. Here's August Suter, who had visited a record shop with Nora Joyce in 1922:

Joyce asked about our doings. I pointed out that Mrs Joyce had become a Wagner enthusiast and had been sticking to Wagner records exclusively. Joyce's remark about Wagner was derogatory. Madame Joyce retorted with some excitement: 'Oh there are many obscenities in your book too!'

'Some Reminiscences of James Joyce'.

We had exchanged our opinions about music, though our tastes were not alike. I had the narrow tastes of my age and liked... chiefly Wagner, whom Joyce could scarcely tolerate.

Jacques Mercanton, 'The Hours of James Joyce'

He could not stand modern music and except for Die Meistersinger and some arias from The Flying Dutchman he had a dislike for Wagner; the Tetralogy (The Ring cycle) irritated him. 'Operetta Music,' he used to say.

Louis Gillet, 'Farewell to Joyce'.

I shall not mention again the tastes of my friend, his determined preference for vocalised singing, his dislike of Wagner and instrumental music.

Louis Gillet, 'The Living Joyce'.

Here's August Suter, who had visited a record shop with Nora Joyce in 1922:

There were records in 1922?

There were records in 1922?

Are you fucking for real my good man

I'm only 30, chill, I wasn't alive then.

In March 1923, Joyce was beginning Finnegans Wake, writing comic sketches based on medieval Irish myth and history. After the first one, about Roderick O'Conor, the last High King of Ireland, he turned to Tristan and Iseult, a theme which had always interested him.

There are indeed hardly more than a dozen original themes in world literature. Then there is an enormous number of combinations of these themes. Tristan und Isolde is an example of an original theme. Richard Wagner kept on modifying it, often unconsciously, in Lohengrin, in Tannhauser; and he thought he was treating something entirely new when he wrote Parsifal.

Joyce to Georges Borach in 1917, 'Conversations with James Joyce,' in Portraits of the Artist in Exile.

Nice numbers.

Fascinating stuff, thanks. Always nice to read about Joyce and his views on music and art.

I'm 35 but also have access to a thing called "the internet"

The wagnertranny is using altered, incomplete, misguiding and out-of-context quotes to jerk off to his big-nose daddy?? INCONCEIVABLE

now playing

start of Rachmaninoff: Symphony No. 1 in D Minor, Op. 13
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-iOINGK7Pw&list=OLAK5uy_mdiNKD36oa_JELmfjDERWT1q_cqJKK9dM&index=1

start of Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances, Op. 45
youtube.com/watch?v=aPZ2owe-y1c&list=OLAK5uy_mdiNKD36oa_JELmfjDERWT1q_cqJKK9dM&index=5

youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mdiNKD36oa_JELmfjDERWT1q_cqJKK9dM

Someone recommended I give Nezet-Seguin's Rachmaninoff cycle another listen, so here I go. It's certainly been a while, especially in terms of the amount of other recordings of these pieces I've listened to since then, so who knows, I might love them.

Now playing
youtube.com/watch?v=BPJtUJblrGY&list=PLtyJJ-BawdIP5EQHNRXEUTcq2-e2fmB1Z
This is actually brillaint; thanks szymaposter

I did post that but I'm not the szymaposter. Glad you're enjoying it though! Szymanowski is great.

Oh no I was just continuing the now playing chain. I assumed more people would post what they're listening to

the least part of Wagner – his music

so true

Yeah he buchered it. I hate when composers do that, especially since the first version is almost, ALMOST always immediately clearly the superior version (looking at you, Bruckner and Tchaikovsky)

lol I put the recording on and after four minutes of listening thought "wow this is completely unrecognizable, what a difference" until I got up and looked at the computer and realized it was the 6 minute overture "The Banks of Green Willow" playing first, haha.

KEEEK
I just put the record on too and I thought "hey, there's an overture first, I wonder if anon is gonna skip that".