Lachenmann edition
youtu.be
This thread is for the discussion of music in the Western classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.
How do I get into classical?
This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:
pastebin.com
Previously on /classical/:
wagner is beauty wagner is grace
wagner is a gay wizard from outer space
blessed thread
What assumptions might you have about me with this information?
Of all composers I’ve heard, I feel like Maurice Ravel’s stands out to me the most (J’eux D’eau, La Valse). From what little I’ve heard, Franz Liszt (Heroic Funeral, Symphonic Poem No. 8) and Johann Strauss II (Op. 257, Perpetuum Mobile) make me want to hear more.
Literally no one gives a shit
Replied
"I'm le heckin sophisticated classical music enjoyer!"
never had a recital or performed in front of an audience
isn't classically trained, private or public
doesn't even play a classical instrument, or thinks he does because he touched a piano once 5 years ago
How many of you does this apply to?
Unpretentious taste with a liking for the fun and playful rather than serious, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual -- most likely a normalfag with a healthy social life, probably uninteresting to us autists here on /classical/
Combining the taste with the fact you're asking this at all, I'd guess you're an extroverted, sensual, and feeling type.
hey >:(
then again, while I enjoy classical music, I barely understand it, so you're right on the money, can't even hate
There are quite a few critics who praise Mozart at the expense of Wagner and even of Beethoven. Instead of seeing that the individual differences between the great artistic geniuses in no way carry an antithetical but rather a complementary character (for example, between Michelangelo and Raphael, Titian and Giotto, Brueghel and da Vinci—or between Bach and Haydn, Handel and Schubert), these critics try to pit Mozart against Beethoven. Whoever does this can never see the height, breadth, and depth of Mozart's spirit. Alexander Ulibishev is quite right when he says, "To love Mozart in all his masterworks means not to belong to any musical faction. It means to declare oneself for the beautiful and good in every category." There is only one real antithesis in the artistic realm, namely that between true art and bad pseudoart; between powerful, inspired works of an inner necessity [innere Notwendigkeit] and tedious emptiness; between noble, authentic poetry and trivial kitsch. He who does not understand the ultimate greatness and depth of Beethoven's music, who approaches him with slogans such as "subjective," "romantic," and "emotionally overwrought," who does not grasp the extraordinary objectivity and classical balance of his symphonies and quartets or the unique artistic depth—full of mystery—of his late quartets, who has no inkling of the breathtaking inner necessity of the Ninth Symphony, who does not perceive the ultimate artistic word it contains, who is not profoundly moved by the transfigured sacred depth of his Missa Solemnis—to him also will remain hidden the mystery of Mozart's world, the soul of his art. Such a one would necessarily misunderstand Mozart, even if he were the greatest connoisseur of Mozart's works.
Our hope is that every music critic misguided by fashionable trends and by the "Zeitgeist" might be affected by the spirit of Mozart as was the great Søren Kierkegaard who said, "You immortal one, to whom I owe everything, to whom I owe the loss of my understanding—that my soul was stirred up and my innermost being was shaken—to whom I owe my not having to walk through life as one who is incapable of being deeply moved; you whom I thank for my not having to die dying without having loved."
I think nobody because choir with concerts is like in all educations globally
maybe not calvinists or conservative muslims
now playing
R. Strauss: Elektra Suite (Arr. M. Honeck & T. Ille) (Live)
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R. Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier Suite (Arr. A. Rodzinski) (Live)
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An Elektra suite! That's new, should be an exciting listen.
you need to experience this thing according to my arbitrary rules, otherwise you're not valid
(inb4 hasty mspaint "evidence" to the contrary)
should be an exciting listen
why
For classical, you literally do yes. Back then playing a classical instrument was much more widespread so the understanding was better. Retards larping and discussing "x is better than y" has inherently zero substance because they don't know shit about the inherent music itself lmfao. It's how you get Wagner gigasimps
If it's just about enjoying the music I obviously agree, but I wasn't making fun of those type of people
she wears high heels
she wears revealing clothes other than to the beach
she has breasts larger than a B cup
she's over 125 pounds or over 5'8"
she has made up "allergies" to a lot of foods
she claps between movements
she doesn't know how to handle her program silently
she has long fingernails or nail polish other than clear
she isn't a classically trained musician
she's a classically trained musician but it's in voice, percussion, piano, clarinet, saxophone, bassoon, or flute
she's into early music, opera, or philip glass
she's too enthusiastic about mahler
she's insufficiently appreciative of mahler
she's into anime
she was ever into anime
she pronounces japanese food terms too carefully
she wears any jewelry other than simple earrings in the ear lobes, pierced once
she has smile lines
she is happy all the time
she is blond, or redheaded, or has freckles, or isn't half asian half caucasian
her parents aren't PhD educated
she likes any "guy things" at all
she tolerates any interest in team sports
she's extroverted
Any of the above: extreme boner killer
(Arr.
You're sliding to the extreme ends of the scawwy slippery-slope like nobody's business. Never have I ever seen someone move the goalpost away and back to its original position in one go. I'm frankly impressed. Still, you're wrong. Also: U.S. pop culture and politics is how you get Wagner gigasimps.
Well because it's Honeck, and because it's a brand new, unheard symphonic arrangement of Strauss' Elektra.
What I gather from hastily giving this a superficial look is that, to you,
she/her
Is an extreme boner killer
or over 5'8"
Kek ok manlet
It's a BRAND NEW, UNHEARD mangling, hacking-off, utter dismembering of a beloved composition, by some hack conductor
How exciting
Why you gotta be a buzzkill. Also, the Elektra arrangement aside, the Der Rosenklavier Suite is awesome on its own, and again, Honeck is a great conductor, so should be great.
Here I hid, I brought you something impressive for a change.
Stravinsky's firebird, arranged for solo piano by agosti except it still sounds insanely orchestral
Video with score: youtu.be
Video of performance: youtu.be
(Sound is the same)
my blood isn't boiling every second of the day from virtuous and life-affirming rage and scorn
perhaps reddit would be more to your liking??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
You can just *say* that you're a pedophile on the prowl for 8-year-old chinese poon
attending lachenmann concert
"hey when does the concert start?!?!"
everyone laughs
I do so love to be playful, I’m a cartoonist by nature. I just appreciate any music that can stir a sense of imagination in me, and sometimes it’s those slow and somber pieces that take their time that pulls those visions out. The Liszt one, Heroic Funeral, was an example. I was surprised at how sparse it was even given its title, but it worked for me. If anything, I feel like pieces like those move at the speed emotions do, of that makes any fucking sense at all, hahaha.
I stand corrected. I am unworthy, righteous one.
Enjoy your quick fix of watered down, easily digestible "suites", poptimist
Stop talking to yourself, boring creep
Check out the rest of Liszt's tone poems, piano music, and, of course, his Faust Symphony:
youtube.com
the slow movement is particularly moving and passionate:
youtube.com
poptimist
Bernstein
Why do you hate that anon
I thought about Karabits (youtube.com
Why would who conducted it be an issue? They’re following how it was composed, right?
true art and bad pseudoart;
Most things fall inbetween, including Mozart. Only genuine, true art is folk music, least affected by civilization.
The performer(s), including the conductor, orchestra, and/or musicians, always matter. No two performances are the same, primarily owing to interpretive differences, whether this means slightly deviating from the score or because the score leaves the decision unspecified and thus up to the performer. So even with the same notes, you can get varying tempo, points of emphasis, volume, repeats (which I suppose wouldn't be the same notes exactly lol), technique (how the musician(s) play), and so on.
Here's a quick, easily illustrative, and famous example for Beethoven's Third
Toscanini's famous brisk and taut recording, clocking in at ~46 minutes:
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Then you have Klemperer's slower, heroic performance:
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and for one more example, here's Karajan -- in-between tempo, with a cool, cosmopolitan sheen:
youtube.com
In short, recording/performance makes a massive difference, to the point of where you might hate a piece played by one person and love it by another. Hence why we spend so much time talking about different and favorite recordings here.
Terrible bait, really. But I guess you got me, "haha"
Folk music is literally only possible because of civilisation. It is as affected by it as anything else related to culture: Language, food, clothing, morals, etc. Where is the folk music tradition of bonobos and toads? Get your misguided, hippie "back to nature" philosophy out of here, mong.
You can tell the difference in the examples I posted in the first 30 seconds too, don't worry.
Oh, and it not only changes how good the music sounds, but also even the emotional content; one recording of a piece might be slow, introspective, and tranquil, another full of reckless abandon, sentimental, and romantic, and yet another a more classical approach, inspiring, and energetic.
culture
And how in the hell does culture imply civilization, dumb faggot?
oh my god
oh my god
Cuck response, as expected.
You need a civilization to create culture. Perhaps your personal definition of civilization is "big city big building car go brr", but it's not
now playing
Tchaikovsky: Slavonic March, Op. 31, TH 45: Marche slave, Op. 31, TH 35
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start of Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony in B Minor, Op. 58, TH 28
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by far the most popular, and for good reason
Don't be dense
Whoops wrong picture genuinely
I posted a link to Solti's in the post you replied to! But yes, as much as I love Solti, I'd take Bernstein's over it, although the Karabits is the one I'm currently in love with as I listened to it a few days ago and boy, it's fantastic, give it a try. Next time I feel like listening to the Faust Symphony though I'll return to Solti's.
You need a civilization to create culture.
Factually incorrect.
From merriam webster dictionary:
Culture:
the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group
Civilization:
a relatively high level of cultural and technological development
specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained
Civilization is a late stage of cultural and technological development. Cultures existed since 100 000 BCE.
Now, instead of gracefully accepting the defeat, here comes the load of copium, because of lack of intelligence, culture and logical deduction skills. I would recommend reading a book or two before responding to this post.
give it a try
Already have. For what it's worth his recording of the Dante symphony with the Staatskapelle Weimar is my favourite recording of that piece.
For the longest time, Daniel Barenboim was hesistant to conduct the music of Gustav Mahler due to his aversion to the brand of faux folkish sentimentality that sometimes characterizes many of the composer's symphonies. It would take a trip to Vienna and an epiphany drawn from seeing Mahler's precious and marked score of Wagner's Tristan that Barenboim was able to begin seeing the subtleties of the composer's mastery of the orchestral medium.
really?
Cultures existed since 100 000 BCE.
Let's hear some fo that 100000BCE folk music
ooo I haven't actually given that one a listen yet, good shout, thanks
Nah, he just was setting the stage for yet another of his pseud gestures to make his mediocre conducting seem more profound
Brutal.
you are gay
I think Helmut Lachenmann is legitimately bottom of the barrel unless there exists Snuff Classical or something
What is brutal about some idiot taking definitions from a dictionary and telling someone else to read a book? If that fuck knew anything about anthropology he would be keeping his le epic reaction images for some better use. Oh wait, you're samefagging, aren't you? Nevermind.
I don't care for Elgar.
I have three recordings of Enigma but it's because they came bundled with works by other composers.
>>blogspot.com
You don't like his Symphony 1 or 2, In the South Overture, Violin Concerto, Cello Concerto, or Violin Sonata?
gets BTFO
uHm sAmefAg
mommy take it down bwaaa
No one said music existed 100 000 BCE, or that all cultures had music, or that we know anything about their culture.
I don't care for Elgar.
now playing
start of Dvořák: Piano Trio No. 1 in B-Flat Major, Op. 21, B. 51
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Suk: Elegy in D-Flat Major, Op. 23
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start of Dvořák: Piano Trio No. 2 in G Minor, Op. 26, B. 56
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He predicted this response. You seemed like the type of guy who keeps watering a dead plant from the very beginning.
no
Civilisation is a prerequisite for folk music. Everything else has been irrelevant claptrap. You're irrelevant, and full of claptrap.
Stop samefagging.
You might not have a soul, then. I'd go see your local doctor or philosopher seer about that.
I think suicide is the answer, personally
John Cage - Six Melodies
tfw no bucolic flower girl gf bringing over a basket of fruit to show her love
I'm not sure how this is related to /classical/
Maybe try instead?
In Mozart's day there was no recordings available so it must have made it easier for him to get away with writing the same piece of music hundreds of times, before tragically dying too old at the age of 35
Never existed. It's called romanticism for a reason.
who are native americans
who are aborignal australians
who are mongolian herders
who are san people of southern africa
You really are illiterate and ignorant. And apparently schizophrenic too.
You see John Cage is a classical musician, also this is Anon Babble
Excellent copout.
John Cage was a pop musician at best and a performance artist at worst
bone flute (Slovenia)
hohle fels flute (Germany)
dating back to upper paleolothic era period
civilization
You have been coping all along, just as I said. :)
Pathetic.
bone flutes
folk music
I see where your mistake lies. Not on anthropological misconceptions, but on musical ones. Sorry I've been so hard on you so far.
Keep your replies in one post, please
Back to kindergarten are we?
Folk music:
the traditional music of the people in a country or region
merriam-webster.com
but on musical ones
Thank you musically illiterate sister.
Never stop embarrassing yourself
I don't want a girl, I want an autistic man in a girl's body
In order for folk music to exist, a civilisation is a prerequisite. Your nice little post just confirms it.
tradition
country
nation
etc
Can't exist without civilisation.
Simon Rattle conducts Gyorgy Ligeti's MYsteries of the Macabre
civilisation is a prerequisite.
Proven wrong on several occassions already. Refer to & >Can't exist without civilisation.
The definition:
the traditional music of the people in a country or region
or region
One sister poster is too many
That was actually quite a nice piece by Johnny Cage
a 327lb Albanian prostitute
Repeating yourself won't make you magically right. Folk music and traditions need civilisation to exist. Cavemen tootin' on bones is simply not a folk tradition. It's not folk music. Because civilisation is a prerequisite for folk music.
time to put on this 3 hour orchestral Ravel set conducted by Jean Martinon and get comfy in bed
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www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ko7ZABm44L10Foqs88OCYD7RwBVf4yS1s&si=5-2fuz6EB8eYczRB
Repeating yourself won't make you magically right.
Correct. I proved you wrong already, repeating won't get it through your thick skull but who's stopping me from trying?
Folk music and traditions need civilisation to exist.
Because civilisation is a prerequisite for folk music.
Proven wrong on several occassions already. Refer to & >Cavemen tootin' on bones is simply not a folk tradition.
It is by definition of folk music provided here:
Not him but
tradition
Pre-civilizational, fucking neanderthals had burial rites. And just look at abbos
country
This is the one where you have a point
nation
Prior to the nation-state peoples were referred to as nations, even if they were diasporas. Bad example cause they were somewhat civilized but the continental celts were thought of as being part of the celt nation despite not having real organized governments. The Germanic tribes spawning from southern modernday Sweden and concentrically pushing outwards and raiding and settling were nations, that part of the world was called 'the womb of nations'. The fact that the Jews, despite not having a state or their own civilization forever, were able to conceive of a "Jewish state" proves that they were a nation and culture all along without need of a unifying system. Culture begets civilization not the other way around. I mean are you going to say Gypsy folk music and culture is only possible thanks to Gypsy "civilization"? kek
repeating myself will prove me right
Alright then. Civilisation is a prerequisite for a folk music tradition.
repeating myself will prove me right
No, I proved you wrong already, repeating won't get it through your thick skull but who's stopping me from trying?
Civilisation is a prerequisite for a folk music tradition.
Proven wrong on several occassions already. Refer to &
Pre-civilizational, fucking neanderthals had burial rites. And just look at abbos
Let's hear their folk music
repeating myself will prove me right
Alright then. Civilisation is a prerequisite for a folk music tradition.
Let's hear their folk music
Folk is always in the process of evolution, you want to hear their folk music? Listen to any regional folk music, there you go.
Civilisation is a prerequisite for a folk music tradition.
Proven wrong on several occassions already. Refer to &
repeating myself will prove me right
Alright then. Civilisation is a prerequisite for a folk music tradition.
George Lloyd's Symphony No. 4
Eric Whitacre - Godzilla Eats Las Vegas!
Isn't that the black guy that got got by the popo?
looks more brown to me
No but really, it's a fantastic symphony, give it a listen!
Civilisation is a prerequisite for a folk music tradition.
Mongolian throat singing dates back before civilization
youtube.com
Also , proven wrong on several occassions already. Refer to &
ok
This is a Mongolian throat singing discussion forum
I need to take a break from classical music for half a year or more. Most of the standard repertoire masterpieces are currently played out for me and I find them difficult to listen to all the way through without getting bored, restless, and wanting to change it to something else. Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Mozart, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Bach, Shostakovich, you name it. There are some exceptions for certain pieces, of course, but for the most part, the amount of times I've listened to the starting five-ten minutes of Beethoven's or Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto or Dvorak's 9th Symphony just to turn it off is depressing.
And what makes it worse is a lot of non-standard repertoire classical is in that position for a reason. Meaning, they might be decent for one listen, but probably not again, and certainly not a masterpiece.
Sounds like it's time to end it all, friend
Scriabin produced masterpieces after masterpieces, some of them might take you weeks to digest, then there's Prokofiev and Rachmaninoff who can be nearly as daunting. Yet you have not listened to them. You can't sing exposition of Scriabin's 4th sonata, you can't recognize tunes form the Symphonic Dances, so why you lie?
Go and explore actual peak of music, leave Beethoven to the circle-jerk.
By the way, I love Beethoven, I'd just never think about putting him above Scriabin. Not in a million year.
let's finally try the Sir Colin Davis/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra set of Haydn's London Symphonies
start of Haydn: Symphony No. 93 in D Major, Hob. I:93
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start of Haydn: Symphony No. 99 in E-Flat Major, Hob. I:99
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those are the first two symphonies on the disc, there's more
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Also added his recording of Mozart's late symphonies. Should be good!
Please stop being such an unbearable cunt. You're giving us Scriabin enjoyers a bad name
They're included too, sadly. I can't listen to any of Scriabin's piano sonatas or Rachmaninoff's piano concertos or symphonies all the way through anymore.
Relax, he's just adding some flair to the conversation for fun and banter. Don't take it so seriously.
Please don't compare forward-looking, unique, revolutionary and trailblazing Scriabin to born in le wrong generation neoromantic crybaby meme composer for poptimists Rachmaninoff
us Scriabin enjoyers
You mean some retards who don't even study Scriabin? Let's not kid ourselves, there's only one, or maybe a couple at best, true Scriabin enjoyers here.
Sing exposition of 7th entirely, best you can (without looking at sheet) & record on vocaroo.
Consider suicide today. Take action. Escape.
there's only one
Yeah, me, telling you to stop being an unnecessary cunt. But consider suicide today. Take action. Escape.
wrong generation
Speaking of. You're in the wrong thread altogether.
Yeah, me,
Yeah you are the poser here. Glad we come in terms!
is every annoying insistant and narcisistic personality type just "fun" and "banter haha :)" to you? you're such a submissive faggot
Sorry you're a rude malcontent.
You reek
Stop tracking my posts and building a profile on me!
Yeah you are the poser here
Yes, the only true Scriabin enjoyer, telling you to stop being an unnecessary cunt and kill yourself today. Glad we "come in terms"!
Kill yourself today.
Sing exposition of 7th entirely, best you can (without looking at sheet) & record on vocaroo.
Oh fu-- uh, I know it's called White Mass. Does that suffice?
stop always acting the same
Civilisation is a prerequisite for a folk music tradition.
Scriabin is light.
Scriabin is truth.
Scriabin is good.
Scriabin is enlightenment.
Scriabin is the fire.
Scriabin is the torch.
Scriabin is law.
Scriabin is civilization.
Scriabin is power.
Scriabin is sophistication.
Scriabin is order.
Scriabin is progress.
Scriabin is the Messiah.
Scriabin is grace.
Scriabin is the mystery.
Scriabin is the puzzle.
Scriabin is the singularity.
Scriabin is the riddle.
Scriabin is the king.
Scriabin is the lord.
Scriabin is the deity.
Scriabin is Faust.
Scriabin is Prometheus.
Scriabin rules Hyperborea.
Scriabin is the Pharaoh.
Scriabin is Zarathustra.
Scriabin is Orpheus.
Scriabin is immortal.
Scriabin is the messenger.
Scriabin invented the numeral system.
Scriabin created zero.
Scriabin devised the first language.
Scriabin created multiplication.
Scriabin is the oracle.
Scriabin is the river running high.
Scriabin is the deep sea.
Scriabin is the dark doom.
Scriabin is the chosen one.
Scriabin is the prophet.
Scriabin is the rebel.
Scriabin is yin.
Scriabin is yang.
Scriabin is equilibrium.
Scriabin is providence.
Scriabin is the provider.
Scriabin is the trough.
Scriabin is the crest.
Scriabin is Apollo.
Scriabin is Dionysus.
music.youtube.com
Yes
Glad we agree on my terms, then!
Nein.
In any case, they weren't calling anyone who enjoys Beethoven a retard or something mean-spirited like that. They were only exaggerating and talking up a bit to emphasize their point and add some entertainment to their post. Nothing wrong with that. What I do take offense to is saying something actually rude like
Please stop being such an unbearable cunt.
Fuck that. Won't catch me defending the other anon who said that.
Wagner is the mystery.
I wonder why someone drew that crappy pencil drawing of some kind of Marvel Goblin on that album cover
speaking of Scriabo, now playing
start of Scriabin: Symphony No.1 in E Major, Op. 26
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start of Scriabin: Symphony No. 2 in C Minor, Op. 29
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A passionate Scriabin First and a very decent Second from Valery Gergiev and the LSO; the sound ranges from excellent to superb. ---- Dan Morgan
The VP executive at the label's 12-year-old son thought his drawing looked 'sick' and insisted his father include it or else he'd throw a tantrum.
Listening to first 2-3 movements of this before going to bed.
It doesn't get good until the final five seconds of the 6th movement. Just kidding, hope you enjoy.
Scriabin is the Loch Ness Monster
There's an anecdote from Barenboim that Klemperer and him got into a fight over his music where the latter was criticising Barenboim over not liking Mahler. During the conversation Klemperer said, "the only Mahler symphony that's no good is the 5th" and so Barenboim decided to conduct that symphony in rebellion.
Szymanowski is one of the most important, unique, fascinating, and overlooked composers of the first third of the 20th century. Please take a moment to appreaciate Szymanowski.
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You seem really passionate so I will listen to at least 2 of his pieces and see if I'm interested after I listen to La Gazza Ladra act 3
NO SWEARING ON MY CHRISTIAN MINECRAFT SERVER!!!
Kill yourself, you unbearable cunt
Tank you
What's the takeaway from this, other than Baremboin is a pseud and a contrarian, and that Klemperer a dumbass for thinking the 5th is bad?
Amusing, thank you.
On god blud if I ever catch u on my block fr
I am. I truly love the guy. Every once in a while (less and less frequently as the general deteriorates way beyond the point of disbelief) I take it upon myself to revindicate and bring attention to composers that I find unjustly ignored/overlooked/underrated. Sometimes the results are pretty satisfactory, like when I was shilling Frank Bridge, or Fartein Valen. Others... not so much. But I still think it's worth a try occassionally.
You're just a bundle of joy
I don't speak jive.
Yeah
Looks more like a DBZ-inspired OC (do not steal) to me. For a while I thought I had just downloaded a shitty tampered picture, but it's actually there on the physical copy. Baffling.
I'm guessing it's Mephistopheles but its very jarring
It honestly wasn't really that contrarian to dislike Mahler in the 60s. He was hardly standard repertoire at that time and many people still disliked him as a composer.
Actually, [Wagner's] TRISTAN alone forms the true source of all the music of the three Viennese composers [Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern] mentioned above.
true?
explain your reasoning here? i'm scrolling up from the bottom and this statement seems absolutely ridiculous.
No. Next question.
It's not about Mahler, it's about having mmuh unique and transgressive opinion. He was arguing with Klemperer so of course he had to disagree and be a faggot about it. They might as well have been discussing Palestrina.
why bother when hogwood's are available?
brahms was a bigger influence on schoenberg than wagner
Nice try. Civilisation is a prerequisite for a folk music tradition.
True. Tristan chord was a massive innovation in harmony, it was unusal to use dissonant chords w/o resolving them.
I wish Schoenberg wrote more stuff like Pelleas und Melisande. Wasted his talent for romanticism.
That's simply false.
massive innovation in harmony
Not really. Liszt had already done it, and arguably more effectively. The Tristan chord is only celebrated as hard as it is because of late-romantic propaganda. Something Schönberg was aware of, both having been alive at the time, and this being demonstrably true.
Correct.
Goddamn there's so many recordings of Rachmaninoff's choral masterpiece Vespers, Op. 37, each with their own flavor.
For now, we play
youtube.com
romanticism
talent
i assume you made this post too?
Schoenberg literally gave a lecture called "Brahms the Progressive" with examples of his own music as influenced by Brahms
lol yea you got me
civilization IS a prerequisite for folk music tho
I always wonder what people who aren't big on romanticism listen to as far as classical music goes. Like, romanticism makes up, I don't know, easily 90% or more of my music listening. Y'all just listen to Bach, Mozart, and avant-garde 20th century stuff all the time?
It depends. Wagner's influence most actively exerts itself on Berg. Wozzeck is essentially just the nature conclusion of Wagner's style of opera, I. E. the integration of classical symphonic form into operatic drama. But that's an exception, and not the rule. For the most part, the SVS took their tonal advances from Liszt (and so did Wagner), and formal inspirations from Brahms. Schoenberg does quote some Wagner in Moses und Aron, and gives credit to Wagner for the leitmotif technique which he makes healthy use of, but again, it's an exception.
Liszt had already done it,
That's why I said "unusal to use dissonant chords". Liszt is one of the exceptions, but Wagner utilised it better.
late-romantic propaganda.
Nonsense.
demonstrably true.
Demonstrate it, then.
No I'm literally the other guy Could you provide sources?
Wagner utilised it better.
lol ok stopped reading there
it's another brahmscucks vs wagnerchads thread
Could you provide sources?
bro literally just google it what the fuck is wrong with you it literally took me like 3 seconds
AI Overview
structure, form
No one is talking about these here.
youtu.be
there's tons of great pre-romantic stuff out there that falls through the cracks
literally too retarded to google
typical tranny
nonsequitur
typical tranny
why bother when hogwood is available?
nonsequitur
It's direct sequitur you retard.
The talk was about harmony. Structure and form have literally nothing to do with it. Do you seriously think Brahms influenced atonality? LOL
Oh, right, also forget Berg's Lyric Suite, which is basically an homage to Tristan, and his Piano Sonata, which is essentially a Wagnerian opera shrunk down into 10 minutes. So, yeah, Berg was easily the most influenced by Wagner.
More like hog-wood, because I've got wood, as in my hog is hard amirite
This part here is the reason why Wagner surpasses every musical composer in existence. It is the reason as to why Nietzsche called Wagner a sickness that had infected and changed music for the better or worse. Exactly at 1:10 I started unconsciously masturbating till the end as I delved into the madness of Alberich (one who sacrificed love for power). This is a power leitmotif, power that only comes when you sacrificed your soul to the devil. Imagine my surprise when it was Wagner who created leitmotifs in the first place itself.
Truly the greatest composer that ever graced our shithole of an earth. We as humans should start conducting pilgrimages in the name of Wagner. There should be a church specifically dedicated to Wagner and Wagnerian religion.
The "Tristan chord" is not an isolated vertical entity (which, in terms of harmonic function, is always ambiguous) but rather several successive vertical entities that are irrevocably ambiguous, because depending on which pitches you consider accidental linear suspensions the harmonic function of the chord (i.e. its harmonic meaning, that is both its relation to its immediate resolution as well as to the overall tonic of A minor) changes. It's less of a chord than a harmonic motif, whose tonal ambiguity Wagner exploits to employ it in a variety of tonal contexts essentially untransposed (A minor in the prelude, C major at the beginning of Act III, B major in the final cadence - absurdly distant keys), prefigures atonal composition with sets or rows, where it is no longer the reference to a hierarchically superior tonic that ultimately determines the harmonic function, but rather the immanent qualities of the material employed, its sensual qualities, if you will. This, in return, is only viable because the Tristan chord/motif does not clearly express a single tonic. Instead, its affective content, its association with the drama becomes a major determinant of its musical meaning, as opposed to its harmonic function in a larger whole - tonality. In sum, it's what Wagner does with that ambiguous half-cadence that marks the radical break from tradition, together with the fact that the acts of Tristan do not end in the same tonic that they start in, not its harmonic ambiguity per se.
I've listened to over a thousand classical albums and not one has been by Hogwood.
the argument is about whatever I just decided, no what you saw in previous posts
oh... it's *you* again...
not obsessed
well it's about time wouldn't you say??
Karajan is better
he did have his own tendencies towards hogging wood, it's true
only if you're virile
My post-hoc emotional analysis of a sequence of chords dictates what dodecaphonism truly was, and where it came from, NOT what the composers who developed dodecaphonism did and said.
aigh
WAGNER
YOU HEAR ME????
WAGNER. W A G N E R.
WAGNER.
W.
I'm allergic to HIP
What?
please, please explain your aversion to me. it's always wild to come across someone whose tastes are so different from your own. i'm fascinated.
Whomst are you quoting?
yes
Wagner is the puzzle.
Whomst
oh so you're also a memelord, great
And the solution is to cut off your penis
Wagner is the puzzle.
The puzzle in question:
The box says 3-4 years but it only took me 8 months
Another, but cautious, supporter from the younger generation was Gustav Mahler who first met Brahms in 1884 and remained a close acquaintance; he rated Brahms as superior to Anton Bruckner, but more earth-bound than Wagner and Beethoven.
Not sure if this post is pro- or anti-Brahms honestly
Wagner was very interested in the music of other composers. He listened carefully and he formed his opinions carefully.
Wagner had some of Brahms’s pieces played for him to help him develop a taste for them, but he never succeeded. The academic mask over Brahms’s pieces repelled him. “If Brahms sounded as good as Beethoven, he could be a great composer too!”
In the following year Cosima quoted Wagner as saying, “I recently read that [the critic] Hanslick had spoken of Beethoven’s naïveté. A donkey like that can have no idea of the wisdom of genius, which, though it comes and goes like lightning, is the highest there is. One could, rather, call Mozart naïve because he worked in forms he did not create himself – only what he said within them was his own. But what do these people know of the enraptured state of a productive artist.”
kek
No one cares
i tell you this guy is fire
It's just fine. And everyone already knows about it so please calm down.
I prefer Lars Pedersen's take
There was a time in Germany when folk knew Music from no other side than Erudition—it was the age of Sebastian Bach. But it then was the form wherein one looked at things in general, and in his deeply-pondered fugues Bach told a tale as vigorous as Beethoven now tells us in the freest symphony. The difference was this: those people knew no other forms, and the composers of that time were truly learned. To-day both sides have changed. The forms have become freer, kindlier, we have learnt to live,—and our composers no longer are learned: the ridiculous part of it, however, is that they want to pose as learned. In the genuine scholar one never marks his learning. Mozart, to whom the hardest feat in counterpoint had become a second nature, simply gained thereby his giant self-dependence;—who thinks of his learning, when listening to his Figaro? But the difference, as said, is this: Mozart was learned, whilst nowadays men want to seem so. There can be nothing wronger-headed than this craze. Every hearer enjoys a clear, melodious thought,—the more seizable the whole to him, the more will he be seized by it;—the composer knows this himself,—he sees by what he makes an effect, and what obtains applause;—in fact it comes much easier to him, for he has only to let himself go; but no! he is plagued by the German devil, and must shew the people his learning too! He hasn't learnt quite so much, however, as to bring anything really learned to light; so that nothing comes of it but turgid bombast. But if it is ridiculous of the composer to clothe himself in this nimbus of scholarship, it is equally absurd for the public to give itself the air of understanding and liking it; it ends in people being ashamed of their fondness for a merry French opera, and avowing with Germanomaniac embarrassment that it would be all the better for a little learning.
Wagner singlehandedly recognised all the flaws in Romanticism in 1834.
"In Schumann there is not a single melody, and that’s why I place Schubert so high above him."
Wagner says he has often sung to himself themes from Mendelssohn but found it impossible to do the same with Schumann, whereas with Brahms he had really begun to doubt his musical receptivity till his pleasure in Sgambati showed him he was still capable of taking things in.
okay, i'm glad. i'm just trying to proselytize. nothing i'm posting is new to me either you can be sure!
No one cares
He then speaks of how much he likes the one chorus in [Mendelssohn’s] Saint Paul following the stoning of Saint Stephen. He remarks on what a period of decadence we live in; Mendelssohn still had some ideas, then Schumann, a foolish brooder, and now Brahms with nothing at all!
Wagner wrote ironically to Wolzogen about the various tragedies: of Schumann, to have possessed no melodies, of Rossini, to have had no school, of Brahms, to be a bore, etc.
R. advises our young musicians to pay attention to the difference between "tempo di minuetto" and “minuetto”, the first is slower, the second, through Haydn’s influence, more like a slow country waltz.
During his studies with Weinlig he had tried to discover the secret of Mozart's fluency and lightness in solving difficult technical problems. In particular he tried to emulate the fugal finale of the great C major Symphony, 'magnificent, never surpassed', as he called it years later, and at eighteen he wrote a fugato as the finale of his C major Concert Overture, 'the very best that I could do, as I thought at the time, in honour of my new examplar'. In the last years of his life he liked to call himself the 'last Mozartian'. He played Brünnhilde's E major passage from the last act of Die Walküre, 'Der diese Liebe mir ins Herz gelegt', and lamented the general failure to appreciate his sense of beauty which, he believed, made him 'Mozart's successor'.
Wagner’s music is clearly demonic. There is a reason why multiple of his operas involve groups of protagonists needing to consume magical substances to stay young forever. Clearly Wagner was involved in some sort of satanic adrenochrome harvesting cult, or whatever its equivalent in the 1800s would have been.
That is actually an interesting quote bro
sure, just stop spamming
That's not me posting them
hey man sure
It is an eternal story
The Devil disfigures
God transfigures
Wagner disfigures sex
Scriabin transfigures sex
Flesh and spirit alike are clay in the hands of the Master
I remember he found he couldn't get the appeal of Schubert's music either。Kind of strange
adrenochrome harvesting
It's almost like he was a pathological liar who would change opinions based on what made him look better at any given time, while actually talking shit of anyone with talent behind their back
Which composers' life stories would make a good movie?
Beethoven
He already has a film with Gary Oldman
and it was bad.
We need a new one for modern audiences
mahler and mozart both had decent films made about them. tchaikovsky and liszt too.
Unironically Mahler (no, that Ken Russell atrocity, like any of his other biopics, doesn't count)
PLEASE tell me you don't mean Amadeus
Liszt is the only one I want to see
a docudrama-style feature about purcell, in the tradition of the films winstanely by kevin brownlow or culloden by peter watkins.
Ken Russell
God I fucking hate his biopics
amadeus is a fine film, for god's sake. a typical hollywood production, but beautifully shot and marvelously redolent of the era. it's got f murray abraham. what more do you want?
Shostakovich
a fine film
a typical hollywood production
Make up your mind. Also it's shit and your taste is shit.
youtu.be
how can you take issue with this? this is so good it almost makes me want to become a wagnerite.
'kay
i like films that look good. it's a visual medium.
I understand you're basic, yes.
I like the full-bodied, traditional, romantic, whatever you wanna call it, sound, with modern instruments, particularly strings. I don't like the HIP-sound, even HIP-adjacent, like Chailly's Brahms cycle sounds like shit to me (his piano concertos are great tho). Gimme the likes of Karajan, Jochum, Bernstein, etc. for Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart. But to each their own, of course.
Liszt travels to Wagner's castle, where he observes a secret ritual portraying a devilish Jew raping several blonde-haired Germanic nymphs. Wagner then appears with Cosima, dressed in Superman outfits, and sings how "the flowering youth of Germany was raped by 'the beast'" and that a "new messiah" will soon arrive to drive out the beast. At the conclusion of the song, Cosima marches the audience, composed entirely of children, out with a Nazi salute as they chant that they "will be the master race".
Liszt confronts Wagner, who is unaware of what Liszt has seen, and inquires about his ambitions. Wagner confesses that he has been building a mechanical Viking Siegfried to rid the country of Jews. When Wagner awakens Siegfried with his music, the creature turns out to be crass and slow-witted. Liszt sneaks holy water into Wagner's drink, but the water has no effect. Wagner then reveals himself to Liszt as a vampire and threatens to steal his music so that Wagner's Viking can live. Liszt rushes to the piano and plays music, exorcising Wagner and bringing him to near death. Cosima, witnessing Wagner's moribund state, imprisons Liszt and then resurrects Wagner in a Nazi ceremony as a Frankenstein-Hitler wielding a machine-gun guitar. Trapped, Liszt observes as Cosima leads the Wagner-Hitler to gun down the town's Jews, after which she kills Liszt by stabbing a needle through the heart of a voodoo doll made in his likeness.
In heaven, Liszt is reunited with the women he has romanced in his life and Cosima, but it never is explained how she got there after killing Liszt, who regret their behaviour toward him and each other and finally live in harmony. In the final episode, Liszt and the women decide to fly to Earth in a spaceship to destroy Wagner-Hitler who has now ravaged Berlin in a fiery machine-gun frenzy. Once Wagner-Hitler is destroyed, Liszt sings that he has found "peace at last".
What I hear is that you like counterfeits and falsifications
I don't care about "accuracy." I'm a 21st century man, I'm a product of my time. I don't care how Bach's music sounded to him, I only care how it sounds to me. Gimme his music on the piano, gimme the traditionalist accounts of his Mass in B minor.
I'm a product
You sure are
zing! 1-0 in your favor, got me good
hip is only so-called, of course. i just prefer the sound.
I respect that, I'm not gonna argue it's objectively bad or anything, and from time to time I give recordings in that vein a try to see if my tastes have changed at all. It just isn't for me.
Like I said: You like fakes and artificiality. You're right also about being a product of your time: No substance, all flashy lights and whistles to keep you safe from any chance of thought.
Pure gibberish but alright.
There was that other one as well
Sorry, did I not dumb it down enough and put appropriate colours around it for you to grasp it?
hip is the definition of falsification
Can you transcribe it into TikTok form for me please? Thank you.
Pure gibberish but alright.
The piano is objectively a superior instrument for virtually everything but the (very rare) keyboard concerti. You cannot clarify the motivic polyphony of a Bach fugue on a harpsichord, nor can you accentuate the myriad thematic contrasts of a Scarlatti sonata on a harpsichord, whereas the dynamically flexible clavichord presents difficulties of intonation and a volume that is utterly unfit for public performances
as much as i like hogwood, he takes just as many liberties with scores as any more traditional composer. interpolating first drafts of movements into his recording of brandenburg for instance. it's essentially a modern style. i'm okay with that. being a product of my time myself.
*traditional conductor
Products of their time only work during their time and fail to transcend. You and hogwart there are bound to become an embarrassing artifact of a thankfully bygone era soon enough.
Stop trolling.
Respectable viewpoint.
The more and more familiar I become with Bruckner's 5th, I more I become aware just how weird it is. Its structure, its orchestration, its melodies, its overall sound. All very odd and unique. If it was the only thing he ever wrote, musicians and historians would be mystified to this day without any other points of reference.
For all of this strangeness, it is equally lovely and powerful.
now playing
start of Martinu: Symphony No. 3, H. 299
youtube.com
start of Martinu: Symphony No. 4, H. 305
youtube.com
youtube.com
what other one?
new fugue, rate & hate
vocaroo.com
trolling means saying things I don't like
Fuck off
ネコ美少年ってクラッシックとぴったりな似合わせでありますわね
really good
Excellent, thanks for that
I don't care about accuracy
Don't worry, neither do HIPsters
Speak on that